Did the Qur’an Copy the Talmud… or Is It the Other Way Around?

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    An enduring allegation against Islam is that the Qur’an “copies” other scriptures. The main case presented is nearly always the Talmud – the most important religious text of the Jews, alongside the Hebrew Bible.

    This idea of the Qur’an taking inspiration from the Talmud originates from Abraham Geiger, a rabbi from Germany. He is one of the spiritual fathers of liberal Judaism. At the beginning of the 19th century, he also penned works about the “Jewish influence upon Islam.”

    Other Orientalists followed suit in this regard, often Christian missionaries.

    We will be taking a closer look at this claim, using their own standards.

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    The Oldest Talmudic Written Evidences are Post-Qur’anic

    Orientalists and critics of Islam utilize the so-called “historical-critical method.” That is, they look for the oldest Qur’anic manuscripts and dive into textual criticism, manuscript evidences, etc., as a way to somehow dismiss it as merely being derivative.

    As part of this process, they look for datable “material proofs.”

    However, they dismiss the sciences of ḥadīth transmission, and Islam’s entire oral tradition.

    So, when it comes to Talmudic “influences” on the Qur’an, why not take a look at what we have as well?

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    Richard Freund, a university professor who specializes in Biblical archaeology, laments in his Digging Through the Bible, p. 173:

    Although internal evidence shows that the Babylonian Talmudic text was completed in the sixth century CE, the earliest complete copy of the Babylonian Talmud extant today is only from a fourteen-century manuscript (Munich, Codex 95). We do have some manuscript fragments of the Babylonian Talmud from the eight to ninth century CE, but they are just fragments.

    Likewise we read on the Center for Online Judaic Studies that:

    The earliest manuscripts of Rabbinic literature date to the middle ages, hundreds of years after many of the cardinal documents of the “Oral Torah” were initially promulgated.

    Basically, the oldest Talmudic fragments we’re not even talking about complete manuscripts – date back to centuries after the death of the Prophet .

    For those interested, Shaykh Muṣṭafā al-A’ẓamī – the late India-born ḥadīth specialist from Saudi – contrasted the textual history of the Qur’an with those of the Jewish and Christian scriptures in his History of the Quranic Text, from Revelation to Compilation.

    Why then, don’t Orientalists apply the same reasoning to the opposite scenario? The Qur’an has written evidence dating back to within the life of the Prophet (see the Birmingham manuscript among others). This is far earlier than the oldest Talmudic fragments. So why do they not posit the “hypothesis” that it is in fact the Talmud which sought “inspiration” from the Qur’an, and not the reverse?

    In fact, some scholars actually do believe this to be the case.

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    When the Talmud Copies the Qur’an

    In a 1974 article for The Journal of Semitic Studies (volume 9, issue 2) titled “The Story of Cain and Abel in the Qur’an and the Muslim Commentators,” Norman Stillman (an American Orientalist with Jewish origins) admits in the introduction:

    A great deal has been written about the Judaeo-Christian elements in Islam and its scripture ever since Abraham Geiger’s Was bat Mohammed aus dem Judenthume aufgenommen? first appeared in 1833. Geiger’s book made a profound impression in its day, although it did tend to give an exaggerated view of the Jewish contribution in the Qur’an. Many of the traditions that he cites are in oriental Christian as well as talmudic and haggadic literature. Our chronology of rabbinic literature is better today than in Geiger’s, and many more texts – Muslim, Jewish, and Christian – have since been published. In the light of this we now know that in some instances what was thought to be Jewish haggadic influence in an Islamic text might well be quite the reverse. The Pirqe de Rabbi Elie’zer, for example, would seem to have been finally redacted after the advent of Islam.

    More than thirty years later, Michael E. Pregill (another Orientalist), iterates the very same thing in his article “The Hebrew Bible and the Quran: The Problem of the Jewish ‘Influence’ on Islam,” published in the Religion Compass journal (volume 1, issue 6), p. 655:

    The traditional paradigm is simply that in some cases, allegations of the Quran’s (or the Prophet’s) borrowing from Jews are simply unwarranted. Careful analysis of particular narratives may show that, in contrast to the assertions of previous generations of scholars, the Quran simply does not consistently reflect the direct derivation of biblical data from Jews or a straightforward assimilation of rabbinic midrash. Rather, the opposite may be the case, namely, that Jews quite likely ‘borrowed’ from the Quran, or even from later Islamic literature.

    From the many so-called “Qur’anic borrowings from rabbinical literature” which have been debunked by modern scholarship, we will suffice with the case of “the repentance of Fir’awn.”

    Many earlier Orientalists have argued that the drowning and debated repentance which we find in the Qur’an, has its roots in Talmudic stories.

    Yet, Nicolai Sinai writes in “Pharaoh’s Submission to God in the Qur’an and in Rabbinic Literature: A Case Study in Qur’anic Intertextuality”, included in: The Qur’an’s Reformation of Judaism and Christianity: Return to the Origins, edited by Holger Zellentin, pp. 240-241:

    There is an additional problem with PRE’s portrayal of Pharaoh’s repentance that is not addressed by Paret but would seem to support his marked lack of interest in Geiger’s discovery. As recognized already by Leopold Zunz, the final editing of PRE cannot have taken place before the eighth century. This is supported above all by various allusions to Islam. It has furthermore been argued that the astronomical chapters, PRE 6–8, when measured against what we know about the history of medieval astronomy, are unlikely to predate the ninth century. Such a late dating evidently undermines the claim that PRE’s account of Pharaoh’s survival is to be regarded as the immediate source of Q 10:90–92, and the possibility that the latter may instead be the source of the former accordingly needs to be taken very seriously.

    Being an Orientalist,  of course he’s going to be precautious. It may even be considered anti-Semitic by some to suggest that the Talmud copies the Qur’an! Yet, this same level of precaution is not taken by Orientalists when it comes to the Qur’an.

    However, this could become a good practice:

    Whenever the Qur’an is accused of “copying” a Talmudic story, we could examine the different evidences – both external (such as manuscript dating) and internal (such as language or scientific knowledge) – and we’ll come to the provable conclusion that the Qur’an is more likely the source rather than the “copy-cat.”

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    For material against such “borrowing” theory attacks against Islam, you may refer to this page by Islamic Awareness.

    Bernard Lewis Admits It!

    Bernard Lewis was a famous British-American Orientalist of Jewish origins who passed away in 2018. He is considered the most influential Orientalist of his time.

    He was a neocon whose words had a direct impact on the geopolitics of the day, such as the Iraq War. This is to the extent that when he died, British conservative journalist Peter Oborne called him “the high priest of war in the Middle East.”

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    You probably wouldn’t have expected someone like him to say that the Jews took from Islam, yet he did.

    He wrote in his classic, The Jews of Islam, pp. 73-74:

    Parallels and resemblances between Jewish and Muslim beliefs and practices may well be due to Muslim influences on Judaism and not merely—as earlier scholars believed—to Jewish influences on Islam.

    A few examples may serve to illustrate the different kinds of problems the scholar encounters.
    (…)
    Sometimes the Islamic version of a Jewish theme or story is transformed and adapted, to carry a different message or to meet different circumstances.
    (…)
    Other Biblical and rabbinical themes—for example, the stories of Elijah and of the curse of Ham—also have significantly different Islamic analogues. By medieval times, even Jewish discussions of some of these themes were sometimes influenced by Islamic versions that had become known to Jews.

    So if even someone like Bernard Lewis can admit it, surely then it isn’t the incontestable universal truth that the Orientalists would have us believe.

    Keep in mind that all we’ve really done here is ask Orientalists to be consistent in utilizing their own historical-critical method!

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    Bheria
    Bheria
    Researcher and writer focusing on comparative religion and philosophy

    20 COMMENTS

    1. Can you guys make an article with references showing that the Armenian genocide was a hoax bring some references and citations please.

    2. The Quran somehow copied the Talmud, Bible, Epics of Gilgamesh, Greek knowledge of embryology and logic, mixed that with Arabic folklore and poetry and produced a randomly assembled orally memorized coherent book that provides meaning for millions of people for 1500 years ?They don’t even think.If Mohammad (SAWS), a bedouin in the 7th century truly did that we would have to follow him anyway, because that is a testament of ABSOLUTE GENIUS.Most people can’t even conjugate a verb in fusha.

      • Of course they copied from the Quran and the Sunnah. The corrupt Torah we have today is not poetic, not beautiful, morally dubious and insults the Prophets, not sound and the language is not really preserved. Hebrew evolved so much and just recently when they took over Palestine they had to use Arabic to create their new german flavored low quality Hebrew.They don’t even know how to pronounce Ayn properly, it’s normal they don’t have true Semitic ancestry, they are just Europeans.

        • Lol, German low quality Hebrew, just like their State, low quality State with huge gay pride parades, atheists, atheist presidents like Ben Gurion, with their zionism made by atheist Theodore Hertzl.Also, it is not just the ayn, it is the the thick consonants, the ra, the double consonants, the grammar, etcThen you have those Evangelical simps following these low quality people, while their own society is getting destroyed from the inside out with their religion dying.

      • Make tawba and renew your faith and nikah (if married) for talking about the Prophet sal Allahu ‘alaihi was sallam, disrespectfully like that, even if the point you were making was intended to be respectful. He is Arab but not Bedouin. You probably don’t know the difference. It’s more important to safeguard our own faith than to think about knocking out deviants and kuffar in argumentation, which should in any case, be undertaken when one has proper knowledge.

        • Did you just called me a Kaafir just because apparently Bedouin is a disrespectful term and even if I believed you, I obviously didn’t intend anything wrong (which according to the english definition and the meaning I wanted to convey just means Arab man from the desert raising camels…).You have mental health issues.You make tawbah for your takfir of someone you don’t know just for posting a comment.Even Daesh wouldn’t takfir people for online comments.

          • You’re just like the arrogant libtards whom you supposedly oppose. Because you’re an ignorant buffoon, you don’t know the difference between absolute takfir and ikhtilaf of ulama in certain cases of takfir or making comments that are kufr but no takfir of the individual. In the latter two cases, the individual is told to renew iman and marriage best to be on the safe side with Allah, but you’re too arrogant for that.

            • Bedouin may or may not be disrespectful but it denies the reality of the Prophet. A person who says that the Kaaba in Mekkah is not the real Kaaba is also a kafir. You’re the one with mental health issues buddy. You shouldn’t be talking to/about kuffar when you don’t even have your ABC’s of Deen right! Because I’m no qadhi or mufti, i suggested to you the safe option that will help you but arrogant liberals… Ugh!

            • A person who doesn’t fear for his iman will most probably lose it before he dies. And disrespectfully talking about the Prophet is apostasy. Only an arrogant libtards like you will come back and talk disrespectfully about the Prophet again by saying “Arab man from the desert raising camels”. You’re an arrogant jahil just like the bani Israel. Muslims speak with reverence about the Beloved of Allah. May Allah give you what you deserve. Was salamu ‘ala man ittaba’a al-huda.

            • You just threw a bunch of insults at me like a child.You are the man who thinks being a desert Arab is an insult.I can’t be made a Kaafir because I used the term Bedouin without meaning anything wrong with it.That would mean my blood is halal because of using the wrong term without knowing ?And you just throw a bunch of nonsense about things I didn’t say on top of it.Yes you are no juge or mufti and if I met you in real life I would put you down like a dog.

            • Brother Ahmed, be more careful with wht ur saying. When ppl say that our prophet PBUH was from the deserts, doesn’t read or write, it just increase the mu’jiza of the Quran and with what he came with. Like hw could sm1 come with all this while being from where he was PBUH.Next we need to hv ‘husn Al dh’an’ for our brothers n sisters in Islam and always assume the best, unless proven otherwise.And Allah knows best.

            • Thanks for the lesson in husn al-zann. Why bring in the straw man of reading and writing? The fact that the Prophet sal Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam, was taught by Allah directly does indeed increase his status and the mu’jiza of the Quran. Who was talking about that?I never made takfir of the individual above. I told him a cautionary course of action given that he neither knows the etiquette of discourse, nor the difference between Bedouins and non-Bedouins, nor religious rulings!

            • That WAS husn al-zann assuming his outstanding ignorance later on crowned with arrogance! To deny the reality of the Prophet is kufr. To say that he wasn’t Hashmi or Qurashiy is kufr. Is it disrespectful to be any other family? No, but it’s denying his sal Allahu ‘alaihi wa sallam, reality. It is the way of the bani Israel (read the Quran) to use minimizing and negative phraseology for the status of ANY prophet of Allah. Phrases like “just a man like us” (of course all prophets are men).

            • The jahil later on comes back with “Arab man from the desert raising camels”. This is NOT the way Muslims address any Prophet of Allah. Learn adab for the prophets of Allah before teaching others husn al-zann! Less than proper adab for prophets is disrespect to them and kufr. Allah being the owner of creation using certain phrases in the Quran or the prophets speaking in self-effacing ways about themselves does not discount our obligation to be reverent towards the prophets of Allah. Learn!

            • For example in 18:110 Allah is telling the Prophet to tell his people “I’m a man like you UNTO ME WAHIY CAME..” (يوحى إلي). Self-adabing juhalaa will gladly cite the first phrase of the verse to say “man just like us” about the Prophet.If those juhalaa cannot also make the claim of يوحى إلي, which they can’t, they should know that they can’t talk like that about the Prophet! The Quran does not tell people to talk in this manner about prophets! Contrarily 2:104, 24:63, 49:2 among others

            • Thank u for correcting me.This is indeed a serious issue. Saying that the prophet PBUH was a bedouin is an insult and factually incorrect. May Allah save us all.I did post a comment with a link about it from islamqa bt it’s still waiting for approval.

    3. I have long been convinced that EVERY allegation against Islam and Muslims by any adversaries is really a confession of a crime committed by the one making he allegation projected upon us.
      Examples:
      Weapons of mass destruction
      Terrorism
      Sex slavery
      Pedophilia
      Love Jihad
      Land Jihad
      And now, scriptural copycat-ism!

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